Running Life’s Marathon - Mat Grills on Resilience and Purpose

In this episode of Stronger Together, hosted by Tanya O'Shea from IMPACT Community Services, we explore the inspiring story of Mat Grills, a Bundaberg local, ultramarathoner, and community advocate. Tanya, passionate about uncovering the heart of people’s journeys, introduces Mat as a high achiever known for his adventures, activism, and dedication to family and community.

Mat is hard to miss in a crowd. Standing tall with an athletic, lean build honed from years of ultramarathon training, he has a distinct look that speaks to his individuality. Covered in meaningful tattoos, his appearance embodies his commitment to personal beliefs and his journey through life. He exudes a presence of resilience and quiet confidence, making him instantly memorable.

During the podcast, Mat discusses his approach to balancing family, intense physical training, and business ownership. As the operator of two specialty coffee shops and a committed family man, Mat begins his day as early as 3 a.m. to manage his rigorous training sessions, embodying a structure and consistency few can maintain. He explains that success lies in using each day’s 24 hours effectively, including his twice-daily training regimen alongside responsibilities at work and home.

Delving into his ultra-running career, Mat highlights his evolution from bodybuilding to running ultramarathons. A disciplined lifestyle and plant-based diet have become central to his health and well-being, supporting his physical endurance and quick recovery. Mat shares that his diet is not only beneficial for recovery but also essential for balancing his high-demand lifestyle.

In discussing his choice to abstain from alcohol and drugs, Mat shares how he was inspired by early personal experiences and later by the Straight Edge movement in the hardcore music scene. Embracing this path of sobriety, he now speaks to young people about making mindful lifestyle choices and encourages them to value their individuality over societal norms.

Mat’s reflections on overcoming challenges, including a significant health scare with a pituitary tumour, offer powerful insights into resilience and the importance of turning adversity into growth. He remains deeply dedicated to making a meaningful impact within his community, serving as an example of living with purpose and intention.

This episode reminds listeners of the value of discipline, purpose, and community engagement in achieving a balanced life. Mat Grills’ journey is a testament to finding joy and strength through commitment, connection, and the courage to follow a unique path.

For more on Mat Grills and his inspiring journey, visit his blog at Adventures and Activism, where he shares stories on ultrarunning, community, and his commitment to a plant-based lifestyle. You can also connect with Mat on Instagram at @mat_grills for updates and insights into his daily life and passions.

If you’re looking for local support or more information about IMPACT Community Services, visit impact.org.au.

Thank you for listening to this episode of "Stronger Together" We hope you enjoyed the conversation and gained valuable insights.

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Transcript

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Welcome to Stronger Together, a powerful podcast series hosted by Impact Community Services. I'm Tanya O'Shea, managing director of Impact and I have the pleasure of front this little passion project of ours. In this podcast series, we dig into some of the many social problems that people are facing within our communities and chat with guests willing to tackle the hard conversations. We aim to keep you informed and updated on the latest information. Please be aware that some of the topics addressed and stronger together contain sensitive issues that could be triggering or distressing for some listeners. If you find any of the content challenging, we strongly encourage you to pause the episode and seek immediate support. Information on where to seek help will be provided at the end of each episode, and also on Impact's website. Impact.org.edu. Please prioritize your well-being while listening. Before we begin Together, we move towards a future inclusive of all. This begins by acknowledging our presence on the lands of Aboriginal communities. IMPACT operates on the unceded lands of the Butchulla, Gureng Gureng, Wakka Wakka, Kabi Kabi, Wulli Wulli, Taribelang, Gurang and Byali people. IMPACT has served our community for more than 45 years, and we are humbled in the presence of First Nations peoples who share an ongoing connection to these lands, for over 65,000 years. We are truly grateful to share and learn from their collective experiences. We respectfully live upon these lands with good faith and a commitment to ongoing learning, sharing, caring and respecting these lands, the peoples and the environment together in humility. Hello, and welcome to this episode of Stronger Together. Now, for those who have been listening to our podcast previously, you know I love to talk to interesting people. I like to find out a little bit more about what makes them tick. But also I guess, to dig into some of the challenges, the adversity that people face. And just to make it a little bit more real for some of our listeners. Today's guest, Mat Grills, is, some of the words that are used here around adventures, activism. For me, I guess I read his amazing, resumé, the career, the things that he's done. And I just feel like, oh, this is an absolute. I'm just so excited to have him here. And incredibly grateful because I think he has so much to offer. And I'm just super excited to get into it. But before we do that, I used to think I was a runner. I for many, many years I would line up to half marathons and I think, oh, fantastic. I've gotten my time down to an hour and 50 minutes. I'm doing really, really well. Well, I got to tell you, I wasn't a runner. I don't think, I think I was, I enjoyed it, I got out in the sunshine. But once you hear more about what Mat can do, I think you're going to realise that I was probably not the runner that I thought I was. So, Mat, thank you so much. You've got an incredible story and I really want to jump in very quickly. But welcome. Thanks for joining us today. Yeah, thanks for having me. So let's dig in. Hey, so when, I see Mat Grills in action and the words that he uses are very much, he's very humble, down to earth. You can hear how much he loves his family, and he wants to really try and have that balance around family, his training, running businesses. I'm not sure how he does it, and we're going to dig into that a bit more. But I think when I think about Mat Grills, I think high achiever, when you see Mat Grills and for our audience, you can't actually see Mat. And I'm going to ask him to, to talk a little bit, about him because Mat stands out in a crowd. So if you say Mat, you will definitely not miss him in a crowd. He's a family man. Mat pushes boundaries. You know, he doesn't accept conventional, or expected, societal norms. He will push those boundaries and labels and he he from a diversity and inclusion perspective, I think you, you know, really strong in that space. So I'm keen to find out more. But under all of that, he's compassionate and kind and generous and very much the heart of our community here in Bundaberg. And a business owner. I don't know how you do it, Mat, but tell us more about when you hear all of those different ways that, you know, I've just described you, then what stands out for you? Many kind words. I appreciate I appreciate all that. It's it is, it's a it's a lot. And I think a lot of the time I was speaking to a friend recently about this, that you live life and you set yourself up in a certain way and lifestyle and habits that over time develop and you refine them and hone them and a lot of the time, it just seems like you living life and you're just doing the best every day that you can and trying to fit as much in as you can. And that balance thing is a big thing, and you don't think it's that big a deal until times like doing podcasts and things like this, and then you actually stop and think and listen, you're like, man, it. I guess I do do a lot. And there is a lot involved in my life and, and we're in the thick of it at the moment. Our, our girls, 14 and 11. So it's a really busy time for them. And then yeah that balancing you're trying to balance your personal life and business life and social and not that there's a whole lot of that outside of work, but, you know, trying to balance that is also can be difficult, but also super important. So it is a lot I don't really know where to start with all that, but, they’re very kind words and just on your introduction, never don't feel like a runner I really take, I actually take exception to because people say what you do and I think as humans, we always, always want to minimise what we do based on the achievement of others. And I'm guilty of that as well. I follow a lot of people that I feel like, even though I feel like a lot of the time I'm like, why do I bother? Even though I feel like what I've done is quite significant, especially in the running space. But I think anybody that's doing something, whether that's a ten minute walk a day, something for their mind or reading or, yoga or practice or anything to make themself better on a daily basis. I never want to minimise that for anyone. And, you know, whether you're running a K or 100 miles or further, I like, never minimise that. And I know we're all guilty of it, but it's, it's something that I want everyone to be encouraged to do. You know, what they can within their scope of their life. And their whether it's professional or personal or whatever boundaries that they can. So never minimise that. Go you. And thank you for that reminder, because comparison is the theif of joy. Someone once said that and, I do need to be reminded of that sometimes. So thank you very much for that. So high achiever. So when you think of those words high achievers. So you've mentioned your business. So it'd be great if we could find out more about what you would like to share around your business that juggle. You're running, you know, how much you train a week and what sort of what sort of running you do, but also your family, you know, and that community, the value that you provide here locally. So tell us more about that. Mat Grills, the high achiever. Oh my gosh. There's probably a book in the four points you just mentioned. then, yeah hopefully there will be one coming one day. But yeah. So as a very brief background, I am we've been married for 22 years this year. So I was married at I was 19. My wife Teagan was 18. So we married for 22 years. We have a 14 year old 11 year old girl. A bit of a change. Next year they'll both be in high school, which could be good. Could not be good. Time will tell and yeah, so I've had a number of different careers over the years. Probably not careers, that's probably not a fair word, one probably career, a lot of jobs and in the last 7 to 8 years found ourself in business. So we have currently two specialty coffee shops, and my wife also has, a hairdressing business at home. And yeah, so she looks after her hairdressing business and helps out with some of the stuff in the background with the coffee shops. But, typically I sort of look after the day to day running of the coffee shops and with a good team. And then, the training side of things has also developed over the years. And it certainly didn't start the way it has now. So again, on a very service level, I've been doing ultrarunning and ultramarathons, for about 17 years now. And today, and the last few years having businesses is it can be quite, quite a bit balance and juggling act with trying to fit everything in. But part of my whole ethos is like not making excuses. We all have the same 24 hours a day, so my day typically, obviously every day is not the same, but typically starts between 3 and 4. And I'll wake up, I get a couple of hours of training in the morning, then straight into the shop work, whether it's a full day or, a half a day, depending on, rostering some days old and then, second time in the afternoon, depending on what I'm training for. But it will be the training or, and or running kids around to all their activities doing back end stuff in the businesses, cooking dinner, preparing all that stuff. I try and do as much as I can at home with all that stuff as well to, to help out and make all that work. And. Yeah, and, and then try and get to bed between 8 and 9, depending on what's going on, to do it all again. And I've, I've become really good at time management. I think it's, definitely a strength that I have. But I also try to not I, I guess from an outsider's perspective, it looks like probably a lot of the time I do overcommit, but also try to allow space to go with the flow and do stuff with the kids if they want to do something out of the ordinary, that's not like one of their activities or stuff at home. So it's it ebbs and flows and it is a constant, juggling act. But I think most of the time I do okay, but certainly fail on a pretty regular basis as well. So yeah, I kind of, I want to come back to the, the word ultra and what ultra actually means when we're talking marathon. And you kind of just brushed over, train in the morning and then I train again in the afternoon and then link that to ultra, because we're not talking. You train a couple of kilometres, you go for a bit of a 5K run before you open the coffee shop at what time? 6 a.m.. So starting work at 6 a.m.. We've already trained before that and then training again in the afternoon. So. So what does it take to be an ultra marathon runner and that training commitment morning and night. How many kilometers or hours are you actually doing in a day and then over a week. What does that really look like? Yeah. So it ebbs and flows depending on what I'm training for. Usually I have a race or I like doing a lot of self, organised events as well. So that would be not like a sanctioned race. It would be something like a project that I want to do. So it would depend on what I'm training for. But as an overarching, I guess, viewpoint, the last five years I've averaged, over 100 K a week, over the last five years. So consistency is my big thing. So typically I'll train in hours. It'll be between, ten and 20 hours a week. And again, that will depend on what I'm training for. So 20 hours is probably the higher end. If I'm getting close to a competition, there'll be a few weeks of that. Like 180 to 200 plus kilometers a week. And then maintenance for me is around that 100 K a week. So and then there's rest periods that I try to do but probably fail at resting. I really the whole running thing has really changed and developed over the years. For me, it's something that I really need to do, for as much for my mental health and clarity. It's a time particularly early in the morning. There's not even any cars out. Typically, it's super quiet. There's no distractions. My life is full of, distractions not a fair word, but. Constant input from, you know, whether it's, phones or kids or employees or jobs to do. So that time in the morning is particularly really important to me, where I can go for a couple of hours and think about nothing or think about everything, and it's a really great way to start the day, to to get your heart rate up and to keep, to get moving. And yeah, so it is it is as much an importance to me for my headspace and to set up the day as it is as a physical thing. It's taken a long time to build what I call it a practice, like a second, a long time to build that. I feel like ultramarathoning and running and things that are becoming quite popular now, a lot of the races sell out really quickly? And it's, it's a popular sport. You know, It's still a niche sport, but it is becoming much more popular. And like a lot of things in the world at the moment, people want this instant gratification and they want to go from A to B or to Z really quickly it. In my personal opinion, it takes a long time to build into that. My favourite distance to race is 100 miles and it takes a long time to, to build to that and to get your body to a place where it can handle running that far and not do it once and then hate it and never do it again. So I've never been interested in doing this for a short time. It's something that I want to do for for a long period and for, for a lot of practice. And I think building slowly into that over time, is super valuable. So, you know, if I look back five, ten years, I certainly wasn't training the way that I am now. And even though I've gotten older, I feel like I've developed certainly as an athlete, my durability, probably some of my recovery and things like practices around that have improved to be able to handle that, you know, 10 to 20 hours a week and not completely break down. And I sometimes it feels like it's close. But, you know, that's kind of the point as well. So, yeah, There are some great messages in there for anyone, you know, so setting up your day really nice. You talked about that precious time for you during the day. And I think for many of us there's that real opportunity to start the day, to set it up beautifully for yourself and to do it in a controlled way that we're actually, just taking charge of it and going, righto, this is my time. This is what I'd like to achieve during that time or not even achieve. It might just be something super simple that just allows you to really embrace that. That start of the day consistency, setting up your day really nicely. Beautiful messages for everyone. And I'm just thinking you're almost like the Pied Piper. You know, there's people who come into town and they've got this great charity run that they're doing, and then all of a sudden there's all of these people that flow on and it running along with you. That's kind of just normal for you, right? I've seen that happen. And all of a sudden Mat's running through and then he's got one person, then another person, then he's got this tribe of people. You create tribes. Would that be fair? Fair enough to say, or am I just sort of, you know, just romanticising that. But I truly see you, you know, just bringing tribes of people together through your running. Is that a real thing? Yeah, it definitely happens. Yeah. Just a couple of things on that, that time, I think to some, it seems selfish to take time for yourself. And I think particularly as parents, it's super important, to take time for yourself and also for your partner to was certainly something that we found has helped our relationship, you know, last 22 years with kids. And we've been through a lot of different things over that time. But I think often times as parents, you feel guilty for taking that time. But I think it's really important to be a good parent, a good human, a functioning member of society to take that time. Yeah. So I think that's a really vital thing. And it's not selfish, you know, and a big thing that I say I love the I love the comment that, I don't have time. And my response now is always, do you know that there's a time called 3AM and, you know, we make excuses. I make excuses, but we all have to. As I said earlier, we all have the same 24 hours a day. It's just how you choose to use them. So that's just a couple points on what you said. And yeah, the, the Pied Piper thing is, is nice. It's I've actually I had a guy the other day commented, I did a long run, just before he raced overseas recently. He's like, oh, I saw you on my way to work. And then I saw you with a couple of people and then a heap of kids, and then you're on your own. I'm like, yeah, it is nice. Like I it's it's nice to do a run like that. It's. I really enjoy, running on my own and time on my own, but it really is a social thing. And I think, we've got a couple, I've got a couple of groups that I've started and one of them's a all guys. group, and I actually think running is a really. It's a really great way to break down barriers, particularly for men, because when you're not looking at each other, which can be intimidating for men sometimes and you're exercising. So I think you naturally become a little more vulnerable. You're side by side and conversation just sort of flows. So it's nice to be on my own, but it's also really nice to run with people of all ages and learn from, you know, from kids to I did some stuff at Shalom at one of the schools. So I constantly learning stuff from the kids and then people who are like in their 50s, 60s and 70s have so much to teach you as well. And that break down those barriers, I think is really a nice way to learn and grow and if that means that I'm the Pied Piper, then that's awesome. it’s great that that can be facilitated through that so Yeah. I feel bad sometimes cause people I'm always like people always seem to come to me and it's always a stupid hour of the morning, I’m like I'm really grateful to those friends that, you know, like

they don't have to wake up at 3: 20:12

00 to get to my place, but, you know, 3:15 to start running. And that it means I think it means as much to me as it maybe means to them to come and run and have some company and, and keep motivated to, to keep on the bandwagon and training. So yeah, it's nice. Oh, and builds that sense of community, which I think we all get, you know, those lonely, isolated feelings sometimes. So to be really creating that within such a small community, I mean Bundaberg, Bargara, it's not it's not huge numbers of people. But you know, that's real change, meaningful change that you're creating in some people's lives. So go you. I think it's I think it's inspiring. Can we come back to so you own a couple of coffee shops. You know, they're at 6 a.m.. However, you had a whole life before being a business owner, which is dramatically different to where you are now. Can you talk us through a bit around your early stages of, where you started your career and you know how that morphed into where you are today? Yeah, it's I feel like I'm in a lot of ways, I've lived a lot of lifetimes in 40 years, 41 years. So I didn't know what I wanted to do in school. I wasn't the greatest student, just love sport, and I had no idea as far as jobs go, so. Straight out like, I did a number of different things, including a youth exchange. I toured around Australia in a band, doing, like, outreach work at high schools. And then I guess had to get a job. I did a number of different jobs that were just jobs. And, and we found ourselves in Brisbane shortly after getting married. And my whole vision there was to start a band. So I was in a hardcore band for a number of years, toured, and just worked a job that I could take time off to go on tour and different things. Sorry. Yes. I've worked a number of different jobs. Factory worker, door to door salesman. My dad's a concreter, so I worked through school with him concreting. Worked in a bank. I was in the police for nearly five years, and that was probably the career job that I mentioned earlier that I did, and, yes, a number of different jobs and professions and lots of things learnt from each one. My wife always says that I could love anything that I do. And it's probably true. Like you, I think you just make the most of whatever you do, whether it be, you know, quote unquote, the worst job in the world or the best job, you learn something through all of them and after, fast forwarding a little with, with the police thing, I was in that police for nearly five years and thought that was going to be my career move, starting a family. And it was a good job as far as security goes. But after a number of years, I found myself not wanting to do that and felt really stuck, the only thing I really had to go back to was concreting and potentially taking over my dad's business, which full respect to my dad. It wasn't something I wanted to do long term. It's extremely hard work and I don't shy away from that, clearly, but it just wasn't the path that I wanted to take I felt really stuck, not having something to go to. So I tried to do a couple different things at uni. My wife is really supportive with me leaving the police, I went to. I did a year of physio and thought that's what I wanted to do found I didn't particularly fit there basically was a run-bum for a year and just worked. And then when did high school secondary teaching for a year again enjoyed that, but found it probably wasn't something I wanted to do forever and just really again, felt like I didn't know what I wanted to do long term. But all the while I was working in coffee shops and I really enjoyed that interaction and that day to day contact with people, whether it was for like 20s or 3 or 4 hours, some sometimes people said that long and I and I enjoyed the cathartic process of making coffee as well. So it was like something that I kept going back to and kept doing through the years. And one day my wife was like, well, why don't you just start a coffee shop? And I think that idea was planted. And then there was time between that and when it happened. But I never saw myself being a business owner, and I certainly see strengths and weaknesses in myself being a business owner. But we've been in business like for eight years now, and things are still cruising along and, we are just out the door, so I guess it's going well and, I love the community out there. It's it is a really nice, diverse group of, you know, younger and older people and people have done some really cool stuff and it's nice to be a little hub in the Bargara sort of CBD and, provide that service and have that contact with the people each day. I really enjoyed it. I think it's important that we mention the name because names just changed. But if people wanted to go and visit in case they are there in Bargara. Yeah. So the Bargara store has been rebranded as Unknown Specialty Coffee, and we still have a shop in Bundaberg CBD called The Journey. We're currently trying to sell that business. Just to simplify things a little. I just have one, but currently still have the two trading. Sorry. Thank you. So, there are some beautiful messages, I think, for our young people as they're preparing to leave school. There's still pressure on young people to make a decision around what are you going to do, what's next for you? Going to uni, you know, and committing to something. And I really love, you know, how you have shared warts and all. There was, you know, I've made some decisions I've actually never thought of something as you know, the worst job ever because I've learned something from everything that I've done. And using that knowledge and that understanding, then to create something from that that was Knew I really enjoyed that. And I love the process with this and that cathartic, you know, that feeling of that's a really cathartic process for me and building something from that. There's some really wise words in all of that, and I think many of us could take away, because sometimes we just think, well, this is what I'm going to be doing for the rest of my career or, well, I've got to do this because it's paying, you know, the wages or the mortgage or whatever. There's options, right? There's always options. But linking it to the stuff that really lights us up, I think was one of the key messages from that. And I whether it's right or wrong, I tell my, especially my eldest daughter, she's picking subjects and she's 14 years old, and I'm like, whether it's right or wrong, I tell them I'm like, I'll be really disappointed. I went from school to uni to a job, but to me life is to be experienced and I don't think any again, this is just my personal opinion is probably unpopular, but I just don't think any kids should be making a decision when they're 14, 15, 16 years old and what they want to do forever. I, I still, I'm not sure I know what I want to do forever, you know, like I think that through experience and travel and, and seeing the world and doing things and experiencing different people, we, we find our way to what we want to do and maybe that's a mindset thing with you know the way maybe just is the way my brain ticks. But I feel like if I wouldn't have done those things and experienced all those things, I certainly wouldn't have the life experience I have now to have done and seen and been where I've been. So I think that's one side. But then I also see, you know, my best friend who is now working with us, I saw him go through a similar thing I went through, and I was in the police and he was in a job that he didn't enjoy, and he was there for years. And, you know, we he'd work five days away and come back on weekends and every weekend we run. And, you know, we constantly be having these conversations about like he felt responsible as a man to provide for his family. And, you know, and if you fill that role and I personally just don't think that providing you have a supportive family and structured money is not a reason to do anything like he really felt stuck to to do that and felt rightfully so, cautious to do anything else and to step outside that because that was doing the job. And even though he was pretty miserable, which I'm just like, it's like nothing is worth that. I hear all the time that people don't like their job and they're not happy. The only person they can change that is you. And I know that scary. And I, I've been through that, as I said, with the police. and I really did feel stuck probably for a year and a half was like, I don't want to do this forever, but I don't know what else to do. It can be a lot easier if people actually have an idea on what they want to do it, like they have a path and they're in something they don't want to do, but then they find something they want to do. But if you don't know, like that's a really difficult place to be in. But as you said, it's all learning. And we, we draw things through like I would I hate to get to the end of my life and not have had these, rich experiences, positive and not so positive that I can look back on and be like, oh, I remember that. And then, you know, that happened and I learned this from that. I think that that's what life's all about. It’s all, it's all a learning experience and I'm super stoked to be where I am now. And hopefully I've got another, you know, when I when I'm 80. Hopefully I'll get another 40 years of cool stories, jam packed adventure and learnings to to talk about that as well. Yeah. So I love I love your coffee shop. So your businesses, the journey, the unknown. Because it kind of really resonates with what you're talking about. And I kind of now understand maybe why they're called what they're called. So if we think about your journey and you said, you know, there has been adversity in your life, if we if we talk a bit about from a health and wellbeing perspective because I don't know what nutrition someone who's doing ultramarathons and training, the amount that you do in a week, what that looks like. So can we now start to unpack a little bit about health and wellbeing? You talk a lot about mindset, how that plays a role for you and some of the health battles that you've had as well during your life. And now some of those routines and habits and rituals that you've integrated within your practice that are now steadfast and important to you and why that is. So, I guess I grew up very a very typical Australian family. Typical talk meals. Didn't think really anything about it. I never remember thinking about nutrition or a healthy lifestyle or anything when I was a kid. I think most kids and most people around my age, eating was just like something you did to just keep getting you on to do the next thing you know, I played a lot of sport was too on the or really be thinking about any of that. So none of that really was in the forefront for me until when we moved to Brisbane. I got I got really into bodybuilding and weights in the gym, and that was the first time I actually remember thinking about nutrition. So I was on a typical bro diet of eating like massive amounts of like meat and dairy and eggs and protein powders and anything that would make me bigger. So that was like that first time that I actually thought about what I was actually putting into my body. That lasted for a number of years. And then. Around the time that I got into the police. So I guess I would have been mid 20s, late 20s, I had found out there were a few health issues through the years that different doctors just put down to. There was no real answer. I was just like, it's just the way it is. And, eventually it led to my, my doctor in Bundaberg doing some blood tests that led to some scans and different things and eventually found out I had a pituitary tumor. So I'm at the base of O'Brien. And so that was naturally quite a big shock. It was, we'd just fallen pregnant, and I just started a new job. It was super stressful. I eventually, eventually, quite quickly had surgery to have the, the tumor removed and then went through the process of a number of years. First it was monthly, down to three monthly, then six monthly and total monthly, checkups and scans and MRI's and the whole gamut. So that time period was pretty stressful. I was really well supported, in the police with finding out about that. And that remove that stress, which was really comforting like, a new family and thinking about not having sick leave and different things. So that was really good. And around that time is sort of when I started to get a bit sick of the whole gym thing. I've been doing that for like 5 or 6, maybe seven years, and my dad was a runner and I was like, maybe I want to do something different. And challenge myself in a different way. Dad's into running. He was running like half marathons and marathons. Like, how hard can a marathon be? Like, I'll give the go I was 103 kilos of muscle, and I was like, running when you're that big is not easy. So yeah. So around that time I started to sort of ease into running and my dad did me a program, as most people do when they get into something new, they're reading and learning. And I was buying the magazines and I started to see all that stuff about like, vegetarianism and veganism and how it can be beneficial for recovery and, you know, an athletic performance. And then at the same time, I'm like having these health issues and I can't remember how I actually found them. But I started like deep diving on the health benefits of like a plant based diet and a vegan diet and just started consuming information like books and websites and magazines and all different stuff, podcasts. So through that process, you know, I, I sort of was like, I'll do a bit of an experiment. And when I turned 30, I was like, I’ll go vegetarian and I'll see what happens. So giving out mate was quite easy for me. It, even though I was eating a lot of it for some reason, was pretty easy just to cut that And, you know, I felt pretty good. I can't remember any, like, crazy standout things that actually happened, but I just remember I was like, man, well, I'm not, like, doing any worse. And, I feel pretty good. So I did that for a year. And then when I turned 31, I started to see more stuff about, like, veganism and then learn a bit about, like the animal agricultural scene and the environment and different things and how that can be positively impacted by adopting a plant based diet. And I've got a super sweet tooth. there was no vegan chocolate or cakes or biscuits like it was like there were very, very few alternatives, very few alternatives. So I was like giving out there was a big deal, So it took me probably I made a decision on my 31st birthday. I was like, I'm gonna give this vegan thing a go. So, it took a little there are a few, hiccups along the way that, after a month or so, I sort of weaned that out and yeah, I haven’t looked back since then. Like most things, when you start out something, it's a big deal and it's like a big hurrah. And you know, you want to save the world and you get these arguments and you know, everything. And that takes time to sort of simmer down a little. So now it looks you know, like there's been definitely some interesting conversations over the years. And I've certainly equipped myself with the knowledge that I need to maintain that lifestyle. like it started out as i said, as an athletic and as, as a health thing. Whereas now I sort of stay vegan for those reasons, but also predominantly now for environmental and animal rights issues. So I take the approach now where I'm like, I don't talk about it a lot. I've got it tattooed on me. That's fine. And I just live my life and do my thing. And every now and then, I do like a social media post about it. It's very few and far between. The only thing that I have is I'm more than happy to talk to anybody about my beliefs around diet and lifestyle. I just cannot deal with ignorance. if you want to come to me and be like, but bacon, I have no time for that. But if you want to have an open conversation where we can both walk away having learnt something from each other, that's fantastic. So, you know, I'm not out bashing people. Not if it was a physical thing, But if somebody wants to have a conversation about it more than happy to share the information that I've learned, I'm open to learning new things. But yeah, so that that sort of role as to where we are now and, and as far as athletically goes, I think what I've achieved athletically is enough evidence to say that it's not doing any harm. to me physically. I think it's helped me, particularly with my recovery, my recovery is a big thing that I can do. 7 to 10 training sessions a week, big volume recover, little loss. I'll live round the businesses, family whole deal and on this lifestyle and it not be detrimental. So I think that's probably proof in the vegan footing. So, Mat, you've mentioned a few times around recovery and way back when we started the conversation, you, were talking about, you know, try to get to bed at this certain, you know, point in time. You've talked like the 3 a.m. start to get going and get, fit your training in recovery is essential. So can you talk us a little bit more. So you've talked about food, but obviously sleep is an important part of your recovery as well. So can you talk us through that in any other strategies you have around recovery? Because it is fundamentally it's something that we don't always put a lot of focus on. And you don't need to be doing ultramarathons to be focusing on recovery during your day, for sure. Yeah, I have thought this balancing act for a long time now. I watch enough, and I know enough to know that I train certainly volume probably more than most professional athletes. And I've tried. I call it my very low paying, very, very, very low paying part time job. So it's like I have my full time job and then part time job, which is my athletic endeavours. So trying to maximise what I can do athletically and in business and life in general is really it really is about recovery. I would love to be able to get eight hours of sleep and night, have a nap in the day, and be able to do two training sessions a day. But that's not my reality at the moment. It's a dream that, you know, I can work 3 or 4 days a week. And then my endeavours compensate the income and I haven't been able to figure that out yet. It's been something I've been working on for a lot of years, but maybe one day. Never know. So it's extremely difficult. And it is very hard to not have something suffer. So from when I first got into marathoning particularly ultramarathons, I always had this thing that meant that I had to give some somewhere and sacrifice something. And that has always been sleep Has that impacted my athletic performance and my life? Probably. However, I'm not willing to not do the thing that I enjoy, and I'm also not willing to. Have it be an impact on my family and get home from work, even though finish work early and then be like, I'm gone for a three hour run. I'm like, I know I've never wanted to do that. Sleep is the thing that I definitely lack in the recovery side of things. And as I'm getting older, I'm trying to figure out sleep. Such a big science now and trying to figure out ways to maximise sleep. I think even though some people might be in be for 8 or 9 hours a night their sleep quality is probably not great. So trying to figure out how I can maximise 6 to 7 hours in bed, but have good quality sleep is something that I'm now trying to do. It's and it's not easy in today's world with, you know, coffee and coffee shots. So caffeine food, night-time habits, screens all these things. Absolutely. Yeah. So that's certainly something that I'm constantly working on. And I know that I don't get as much sleep as I need to. So I need to try one, get as good a quality sleep as I can, and then try and focus on the other stuff that that I can do well outside of sleep. So that means that I'm trying to limit caffeine intake too late in the day, not eating too close to bed. And then the biggest thing for me, I haven't really personally bought into all these recovery modalities, which are super popular at the moment, are these ice baths and saunas and recovery boots and all that stuff? To me, I think, a vegan diet is super low, inflammatory by nature. I think if you remove acidic in, in inflammatory foods, your body can go into recovering a lot quicker, so, for example, if I do typically I'll do a two hour before work, I get to work, I have a smoothie. So once it's liquid so it's digested quickly two, it's fruit and superfoods and stuff that is going to help your muscles repair and then all be digested quickly and then go to repairing your muscles so you don't have that lag time with, your body working really hard to break down, you know, meat and dairy and things like that. Things happen really quickly and then your body goes to recovering. I feel like that's been a real leg up for me. I, I honestly and maybe this is all a load of hocus pocus, but to me, I don't think I'd be able to train the way that I train and live the lifestyle I live. If I didn't have that quick recovery and the being able to go back to back to back and you know, if anybody ever wants to challenge me on it, I might be more than welcome to tag along in my life for a week. And try and keep up. That's not an ego thing. I've proved that this has worked over years, and I feel like, as I mentioned, I fit a lot in and I do a lot showing me how it's not working. so, yeah. So the recovery thing, I mean, the life of a professional athlete would be lovely, but that's not my reality. So I do whatever I can and within my scope and time to. And I think my job actually helps too. So I actually think if I was doing a job where I went and sat down all day, you probably wouldn't be right. As much as sometimes I would love to sit down all day. I think, you know when you had a couple of weeks in, no big block of training and you know, it'd be lovely to be able to sit down and and conditioning all day. But I think being on my feet and moving, in that active recovery also helps as well. So, lots of little things. But nothing groundbreaking. Well, and so you talked about a few of those things that can affect sleep. One of the things that you didn't mention is alcohol. And I know that there's research, that, you know, that demonstrates that alcohol prior to bed, or after a certain time for some people will affect their sleep patterns. It will wake them up at a certain time in the night. Now, you didn't mention alcohol quite specifically. Tell me about your relationship with alcohol and why for you, it's not even something that you bring into a conversation. I certainly bring into the conversation now, but, for reasons that most people wouldn’t expect probably looking at me so I guess we go way back. My growing up, my grandpa was an alcoholic, and my dad probably drunk on occasion too much. When I was a kid. He's certainly he's way off that now, but, from as early as I can remember, I, I just remember looking at these men that were in my life and having poor association with alcohol. And my whole life, anybody that sees a picture of me or knows anything about me probably. Is far into the conversation can probably realise that my whole life I've wanted to be different and do things different to the standard. So I saw these things going on, with my grandpa, my dad, and around the time that in school when, you know, most kids, they start experimenting with alcohol and drugs and stuff. I don't know whether it was a subconscious thing or my stubbornness or my desire to be different. I saw this all going on, and I just I don't remember the day, but I just remember making a conscious decision that I didn't want to drink or do drugs. So to this day, I still I've never drank alcohol and never tried drugs. I've never had a drag on a cigarette. And most people find that hard to believe. But believe whatever you want. The only alcohol I ever had is we grew up in international church and have wine at communion, so that's. Yeah, so that's my extent of alcohol consumption. So yeah, I it's something that again is I just I made these decisions and I didn't really know I guess I'm a reasons but I didn't really know why I was associating things to to it. Then when I started my hardcore band and I started to get into the hardcore scene, I actually learned about this thing called Straight Edge, which was like hardcore music and metal core and heavy music is a niche. Music is already on the outskirts. But then I also found this community within that music space of this idea called Straight Edge, which is these ideals started in sort of the 80s with a couple of bands of these people who who drew X's on their hands, and it was like a symbol that when you used to go to a club, people that were underage would get X's put on their hands as a sign they couldn't buy alcohol. And the Australian community adopted X's on their hands. And it was like a lifestyle within the hardcore community of not drinking, not doing drugs and not sleeping around. I live to that. I'm not sure about others, but that was part of the thing, right? So I, I found this community within the hardcore scene already a niche community. So then like a niche community within a niche community, are these people who are, like, actually proud of the fact that they don't drink and that I do drugs and they're out of step with society because they don't do these things. So that was really cool. That and that's come and go on in life as I've moved in and out of music scene. I'm right back into it in the last like five, six years. So it's really nice. There's like these straight edge rock clubs and it's really cool. Like it's really I think it's a really and is something now that I'm really trying to bring into speaking to young people and it's a desire really have with wanting to do presentations and stuff at school because I just feel like there's so much pressure on kids on in a lot of ways. And one of the main ones is this pressure slash societal norm of consuming alcohol, experimenting with drugs, smoking cigarettes or vaping or whatever. The new thing is It ends and flies with, you know, depending on the era of but I think alcohol, I think 90% of the world's problems probably wouldn't exist if it wasn't alcohol. I personally believe that. No good comes from alcohol. People can make up whatever stories they want about it, being healthy and rah rah and I’m the whole wine thing. I like, Eat grapes. all these stories that people tell themselves about whatever reason, oh, it's fine and rah nothing good comes from drinking alcohol. It's not a health food. It's a toxin I like. Anyway, at the risk of ranting, I've made a conscious decision, and it's something I'll never do in my life. And again, it's like it's no judgment on anyone else. I just. I feel like. it's quickly, quickly, but it's becoming an area of my life which I feel really led to speak about. And, and as I said, like maybe it's with having teenage kids now, maybe that's been a part of the, the, the boot to, to move more into this. I don't understand why it's so difficult. Like people like it's so hard not to drink from, like it's really not like it really is not like I go to gigs and pubs and everywhere that normal people go, and it's literally not that difficult. so my I guess all I would say is if you do something you struggle with or it's something that you don't feel like is serving you in your life, send me a DM, send me an email if you need to. But it's really not that difficult and I feel like my life's been pretty full and I haven't missed out on anything from not doing drugs or drink alcohol or. Yeah. Love of thank you. Because I think it's a really important conversation because alcohol frequently for people is used as a numbing, you know, because it's such challenges. So that's an easy way to just escape for a while. Or it's just their go to so I think that relationship that we have with alcohol, I think it is being honest about what is that about what's driving that. Why why is alcohol, you know, something that I find really hard to, to not have. So thank you, because I think that, there's some really good messages in that. And thank you for being so generous and saying, hey, if you want to, you know, have some advice around that or just check in, just DM me. So thanks, Mat. I think that's like for me too. Like I have and obsessive personality and I'm well aware of that. And I think if I would have started down that path, it I may not be where I am now. So how I had that mind frame it, you know, 14, 15 years old to make that decision. I don't know that I'm really glad that I did. Yeah, there's certainly, I've, there's wise person in there, through all of these messages and, you were asking me earlier, and, you know, I'm always interested in how people will describe me, and that's what I was just busily writing notes here. We're not getting to that yet, though. So can we, for the benefit of the people listening, you've talked a bit about that individuality. I call that, you know, this guy stands out in a crowd, you won't miss him. So if there's a group of people in a room, there is absolutely no way that you're going to miss, seeing Mat Grills. So for the benefit of our listeners, how do you describe yourself? Because you've you've talked a little bit about your you just mentioned tattoo earlier. It's actually a bit more than a tattoo. So let's talk. How would you describe this individuality that you've created within yourself that you, you actually do stand out in a crowd, but you but you're also the person who it's not about that. It's not about being that centre of attention, which I absolutely love. It's this isn't the reason why you've done what you've done or made the choices that you've made. So talk us through a bit about that. Yeah, I really appreciate you observing that last part, because that is something I've struggled with over the years. So I don't know where that that deep desire, I think I said earlier, I came from as a kid, like I just all I wanted to do was be different. And yet I had I have always had this deep need to be accepted and to be liked, I guess, for lack of a better word. So that's a that's a really hard place to be in because typically people who are who look different, who live a different lifestyle, who. They say they don't care what other people think. But I think a lot of the time we do what we do because we do want people to like us. So it's a really it's a bit of a dichotomy, I guess. So it's a bit of a tightrope too, isn't it? You know, you're sort of swinging, you're oscillating between one and the other and the, you know, at the age of 14, 13, 14 and making some of those big decisions that you've talked about, that must have been a little bit of a struggle as well, that wanting to be liked, but also wanting to be just so different. Yeah, sure. And yeah, so it certainly is a tightrope so, and it's and it's evolved over the years. I was like I started off I was into like wearing weird stuff. I was into like dying my hair and haircuts and constantly fighting rules of being in a private school. And then I got into piercings and piercings was like a big thing. For a number of years I had no interest in tattoos. I had a an up and down relationship with my dad when I was in school, and we're like best mates now, so it's like, that's all. We're under the bridge bit. He had a couple of tattoos that I was like, I'm not get tattoos. I was just in piercings. So that like ran its course for a little while. And then, when I was on Youth Exchange, overseas, I got my first tattoo. I guess there was some separation from, like, my family being overseas on my own. And that was like the start of that journey. It's a it's an evolving process. And, I started getting like a number of tattoos and then that, like, just kept on going and then again in the music scene, like, particularly the hardcore scene, it's like a massive thing, like people that are heavily tattooed. And for a lot of years it was something that I really, I really didn't like talking about. Like if somebody made a big deal out of it, I was like, it's almost like I was embarrassed and I did this thing for me. And because I liked, I guess what it sort of associated with, with music and, and heavy music and things like that. But it was almost like I was embarrassed if anybody brought it up. So that actually, like, lasted for quite a while. And if somebody made a big deal out of my tattoos, even up until maybe like 5 or 6 years ago, it's like you always like just palming it off and like, I don't really want to talk about that. However, I sort of had a couple of year break. If not, I was getting tattooed reasonably regularly, and then I had a bit of a gap of not getting tattooed. I think I tried to be normal for like five minutes and then that was really bad idea and then boring, and then I don't know what happened. I was just like I was getting into business in my mind, finally realising that I literally could do whatever I wanted and, and, and that had become a part of my image. part of my branding at the start of my running career was I would call myself the tattoo runner so it was like that became sort of part of my, for lack of a better word, brand. So I think I came to a point where I was just like, you know what? I'm pretty heavily tattooed, like, if I really want to, I can like take this as far as I want to and not want to, respecting my life and my family and and that as well. So for the last like three, maybe like four years, I've gone like pretty hard at it. And for anybody who hasn't seen photos of me at the start of the year finished my full bodysuit. So I'm like, I'm covered, except my face in my head, and my front and I am now, like, in this position that I've brought myself to where I'm like, I'm happy. I'm actually quite proud of what I've created. It's like it takes commitment. I saw a, real the other day of like the CEO that's billionaire CEO any how he was talking about like and he wanted this heavily tattooed should be your number one person for a job because it shows like commitment, willingness to endure pain, financial commitment. Like all these like things that make somebody good in business is like you have to be able to endure, to get heavily tattooed. So anyway, it's definitely part of my brand. It's definitely like something I'm now very proud of. And, and it's, and it's interesting because it's like, yes, as you said, like, I'm well aware of the fact that I stand out in a crowd. However, that's not my desire. I, I don't think particularly in the last like since I've been getting like heavily, heavily tattooed and finished, my body suit, I've never done it to be like, look at me. I have all these tattoos. Like, that was never the intent. And it's really interesting with my kids and my kids friends and customers at work, I don't feel like. And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't feel like any of my regulars, regular customers at work, which could be like 100 plus people, certainly not my kids. And certainly not my wife none of them look at me and go, whoa, he's got heaps of tattoos. It's like they see me for who I am. And my external portrayal to the world is just part of who I am. Not it doesn't. It doesn't make me who I am. And that kind of makes it so. And like, he's that hilarious. Like, it's like they don't like, I don't know any different. And it it's funny with their friends sometimes, like you often wonder what they think and and what their, what my kids friends parents think. And so like that's a new stage as well. But I think enough people sort of know me in towns and know that, like. Yeah, that doesn't make me good bad or otherwise it's just part of. Yeah, I was and you know like off to that, off to the side of that I literally said to I've got a new piercing now that I'm like 41 years old. And I said to go out with this girl like half my age, I'm like, do you think I'll ever, like, get over this? And she's like, probably not. I’m like I hope you're right. I want to be this guy that's 50,60 and still respectful, but also doing what I want and portraying the image I want to the world and yeah, I don't like that's an evolving thing, but it's fun to like, I don't like you said boring before, like, I don't like it. And I'm not like, again, it's not like any judgement on anyone else that doesn't have tattoos or chooses to dress quote unquote normally, whatever that might be. I don't, I never want to be boring. I always want to be. I still like surprising people and it's funny. Now, if I get, like a new tattoo or like and people don't even notice. they’re like, Oh I like whatever I do blends in with the rest. Yeah. So that's probably a really long answer to. No. It was, it was great. Thank you. I love the no excuses I love the hey I'm owning this and my choices. And you know what my decisions that I've made have you got a favourite? Sorry. That's the thing that I'm really interested in is this is there one that you've had you. That's my favourite. Or it's all been part of the bigger masterpiece that each bit is then, you know, filling another part of the puzzle to create the bodysuit. Yeah. I think this again, comes back to instant gratification. So I never started getting tattooed to think on the whole bodysuit. Whereas now there's like 20 year olds that are like getting after pay to like, get a whole body suit. And I'm like, that's not what it's about. So I started just getting like little pieces. And then over time they just sort of got bigger. And then they all sort of you join them together and whatever. So favourite ones I think a lot of the time it's more experience. So I got like, a Jesus on my forearm and that like it's done by this quite well-known tattooist from America. That was kind of the story around at that you know it was at a tattoo convention, but then he ran out of time. So we went to his motel room and got tattooed at like midnight. Oh, I love it. And then Like the most recent tattoos I got, it's been a dream for many years to get, traditional tattoos in Japan is called Sudbury, where they do it by hand. So we're just in Japan and I've got two small tattoos that were done traditionally. Wow. So there's a few favourites, but I think it's all just favourite now, Yeah. Beautiful. Oh, that's so great. And I love that some of your story is. And part of that journey is quite accidental. You kind of just and then it sort of falls into place. Doesn't that interesting that process that things will actually just fall into place if they’re meant to be. So really, really love that. Tell us about what's next. It kind of feels like I can't believe you're only 40 because you've jam packed so much into your life, you know? And I look at your notable running achievements. And running barefoot. Numerous marathons, including one completely barefoot. And I'm going, Why would anyone do that? You know, gravel bike event. There's Ultramarathon Australia, so three days, 515km. You swim, you do bike racing as well as part of that whole story. What's next? Like, I kind of just feel like, what else is there for you to do? Yeah. Tell us about that. It is. I am actually in an interesting space at the moment, and that's like. That's the question I'm asking myself. My last race that I did, I didn't finish, which was super disappointing in Japan. And I've been doing a lot of like, self-reflection through that process. And it's like, what what what is left. Right. So and I think the cool thing about what I do is there's not necessarily an answer like I've got, I've got a 100 things that I want to do. It's athletically and, Yeah. So a lot of big projects that I want to do overseas or require a significant amount of money. So and it’s time as well. Right. So as i said I've got a young family not so young anymore and they've only got a few more years at home. So it's like how do I balance that time between wanting to do these really long multi-day events. And one way that we've been able to do that recently, in the last few years, which we're going to continue to do, and my wife bless her, she's like fully on board a lot of these races have lotteries. So and you have to keep re qualifying. And a lot of them are really hard to get into. So a lot of the big races that I want to do, I'm applying or I'm running races to get lotteries and they're overseas. And my wife’s like, what race you want to do? Let's plan a holiday around that. So super kind of her, there's probably some ulterior motive because she gets to go on a really cool holiday as well. Yeah. So you know, being able to race in America last year was Italy. And then this years been Japan. So I a couple years ago I had I started and I had a go at running across Australia. That's still something that I really want to get done like I it's been burning a hole in me since I was unable to finish that. So something I really want to do. But as I said, I've got like a list of 20 things I want to do. Like I want to try. I want to run around Tasmania with no plan and a backpack and just go by the kindness of strangers. I want to try and make my running more of a quote unquote job. I've always wanted to have, like a videographer to do, like YouTube stuff and there's a race called The Speed Project in America. I'd love to do there’s race in in France. And like, there's all these things, and then all the little like we just started this cool little project with me a couple of mates for October, so we're running a kilometre for the day. So run one K on the first, then two, then three then four all up to 31. Wow. So that's October. this is like short term. So and then I've got a self organised event that I'm going to do in November. And then I've got a really very big summer plan. So I think keeping myself entertained with like ideas. And I'm constantly thinking about ridiculous things to do. Like earlier in the like, even expanding on races. So in March, I did, I started I unfortunately there's been a few DNF lately of not finishing so I've been really like learning a lot about failure and how to process that as well. So that's a whole another conversation. But I did a race, I started 100 K race in Noosa in March and I decided to run to the start. So that was like I did that with my dad. So my dad drove my van and I ran like, it's like 250 something kilometres to the start line and then do the race. So like, oh, like that. Gosh, white. That's what now interests me. So, And there's and you know, we talked about right at the beginning about, comparison being a thief of joy. That's it. Yeah. I'm I'm guilty of that as anyone else. Like I look at. And social media is the worst of this, right? So, like, I follow these people, incredible humans. And, like, I look at stuff they're doing, I'm like, I have like, one. How do they get the finance to do that? And I'm like, dude, I would like to do that. But then it's the time thing and you know, so I don't think there's any new ideas and there doesn't seem to be any limit at the moment to human potential. There obviously is. But, I think I'm like on a constant quest to find out what that is. Me. I still don't think I found it, and hopefully I never do, because I think when you do, that probably is like the end of the road for what you're doing. Maybe. So I want to keep pushing those boundaries and, can I give you a concrete answer on what that is? But also, lots of ideas and love it. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Yeah. And you will do whatever you want to do, because that's what you do, right? You turn. Yeah. The unknown or the unexpected into the reality of what's actually possible. So you're an inspiration? Honestly, Mat, you're an inspiration. Is there anything for you that you were hoping that we would cover that we haven't talked about, that you'd like to explore or mention? Not particularly. I think over the years I've ebbed and flowed with like, focuses on my quote unquote message. And something I've really been focusing on recently is two things is one is we've already spoken about is consistency. So whatever you do in life, business, athletically, diet what like be consistent. you will not get results and you won't achieve anything if you do something for a week or a month or six months. anything worthwhile, you need to be consistent at. So consistency is a yeah, I think that's evident through particularly through my athletic career relationally, consistency is the most important thing. That's the first thing. The second thing is, which I've really been banging on about over the last few years, is small steps. So anything you want to do, this whole instant gratification thing, which I brought up a few times, it's a load of rubbish nothing worthwhile in life happens without suffering. Starting small perseverance, consistency. So small steps. People don't want to start, walking for a minute. I like when I start people, I do some coaching, and when I start people like running. If they haven't run before. Most people don't want to start with a five minute walk or putting their shoes on and not even leaving the house oh, why am I going to do that? I'm like, trust the process and start with small steps. Don't aim to run 100 miler like in one month or six months or even a year. take these small steps. It's all about building habit and about creating a lifestyle and a series of activities in your life, which starts really small to get to where you want to be. So and that's not just athletically, that's in everything. So when we an example of that is when we decided to start a coffee shop. I literally set myself a goal and it went for over a year. I had a book, and every single day I had to do 1 or 2 things towards opening that business, whether that's a phone call, an email, an idea. if you looked at that a year prior, you like, you’re never going to open a business. guess what these small steps and daily practices add up over time? And before you know it, you're that much further down the road. So consistency in small steps is like, that's what I'm most talking about at the moment. And I think if you can do those two things in every area of your life they’re very simple, but you'll look back in a year or two years, five years and be like, man, I've actually like achieved a few things. Look, it so resonates with me when you're talking about that consistency. So for me, consistency, energy, effort turning up, not just for the practice but also for yourself. and also that small steps. I can remember when I started my, gym training and I started with going to, Kmart, just getting a few bands and setting myself up that way because I thought, right, I've just got to build a practice around this. And then I invested in my own gym. but that took at least 12 months to get to that point where you go, right now, I'm ready to make the financial investment because I've got really good consistency around that. So something that we, what we use here is just pick one thing because we know that picking that one thing will create a ripple into other areas, but it also takes away the overwhelm because we all have this stuff that we want to achieve or we know is going on for us, and then we become paralysed or stuck, don't we? Because it's too hard just to just to take a step because you don't know where to start. So if you can just pick that one thing and focus on that for a while, I'm absolutely hearing you. the momentum will come over time, as long as you remain consistent in that practice. So they link, they link really beautifully. I did make a commitment to you because as you said, you know, at the start, I'm always interested in how people, you know, describe me. And I started by saying, oh, adventures and activism and the key messages that came through for me, and I had to write them down because they were coming to me. And interestingly, they all started with, C, strangely, I don't know what's driving that. But consistency was the first one. And that's around your energy in everything that you do, as you said, relationships, your training, your business, your community, your people, the way that showing up, that's all consistent. and even in those, things that you commit to. So commitment was another thing. So you're committing to things, and you remain consistent with that. You seem to be able to make that commitment to yourself and have that clarity. So clarity was another one of my C’s, your clarity is amazing. And even though you don't always you're not quite sure where it's going to go. You end up, you know, forming this picture and this clarity comes through that about how this is connected to this and this is connected to that by trusting that process. So those were sort of the words that come up for me. Community, came up compassion. I think out of all of these, you know, you're compassionate for other people. You're compassionate. And just, you know, again, how you're showing up and you just those beautiful kindness, you know, around, hey, if you want to check in with me, just DM me, check me out, reach out. Happy to help. So you know that compassion for community, but also anyone who might be listening for this because you know how hard it is and you're willing to support people through change. So. So those were the words that come up for me. One C that didn't come up for me was, conformist. Are absolutely, you know, that I loved that pushing boundaries. And I and I love the fact that you own that, you know, I'm here to push boundaries. I really, I, I want to be different and embracing that. And I think that's got a really beautiful message for people who might be struggling with that individuality as well. So so thank you. Well, thank you for those kind words And I just to add to that, most and most nights I go to bed, I feel like I failed somewhere. So I guess just one final thing to say for me is one is very kind. that you said all that. Thank you. But I often feel like a failure in so many areas of my life. And I know I’m really hard on myself, and I'm well aware of that, but I guess just know that through failure and through having high goals and high expectations comes success. So we have everyone that has achieved anything in life has failed multiple times. So all those things that you said I see was fantastic and turning up every day, even though you’ll often feel like you've failed in lots of different areas, always trying to be and do better and live by those principles I think will get you a long way down the road. And knowing game. Right. Knowing game when we're in the ground that the end game and hopefully after that it keeps going. Yeah. Yeah yeah. Love it. Thank you I hope you've enjoyed this conversation and listening as much as I have. Thank you for joining us today. A big thank you again to Mat for taking the time out. You're very generous. I know how busy you are. So thank you very much for that. And I hope you've I hope you've enjoyed listening and you've learned something or taken away something from the conversation. Any links we will absolutely link you in so that you can check that out yourself. We've tried to describe it as well as we can, but there's not quite anything like the real thing. But again, thank you for joining us on this episode. We look forward to chatting to you again soon. food. We understand that some topics in this podcast may have been sensitive or triggering. If today's conversation has affected you. Please consider reaching out. Lifeline offers 24/7 support at 13 1114 or via online chat. For those in the wide Bay Burnett Region, IMPACT Community Services is here to help. 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